Fourth Post!
Jun. 6th, 2022 09:22 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
hoisinsauce posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
secretfanspacebtw feel free to suggest/nominate post titles
Post about fandom! Or whatever! Whether it's a rave about some obscure series, or an essay dissecting every last reason why some internet-famous author should rethink their career, someone will probably read it at some point! We also just chat about life.
(start a comment thread by replying to this post)
Post about fandom! Or whatever! Whether it's a rave about some obscure series, or an essay dissecting every last reason why some internet-famous author should rethink their career, someone will probably read it at some point! We also just chat about life.
(start a comment thread by replying to this post)
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 12:28 am (UTC)bullshit on multiple levels but imma keep it light and just say that i am already missing the grace & danny lavery thread bc it really had everything. 2010s blogosphere wank. publishing wank. bluecheck twitter wank. nicole cliffe hooking up with the dude that wrote manhunt really brought everything full circle. where will i read about this BS now :(
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 12:45 am (UTC)Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 01:10 am (UTC)Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 01:13 am (UTC)Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 01:29 am (UTC)Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 02:18 am (UTC)not that it matters, it's inconsistent either way
i just can't for the life of me work out why they think the world they're going to create will be better than the world they're currently in, and not worse than the world they're currently in
(well, i do know why. it's because they have no imagination + no knowledge of history and these qualities combine to create the kind of stupidity that one can only regard with a kind of breathless awe. if you told them there was a terf lurking in their loo they'd start hitting the porcelain with a hammer, smash all the pipes and then once their bathroom had flooded they'd consider it a job well done and campaign for their neighbours to do the same)
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 02:19 am (UTC)Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 05:20 am (UTC)DA
Because they are fucking idiots who don't live in a repressive country and never have, despite their insistence that they are oppressed.
I don't really have sympathy for that.
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 08:34 am (UTC)This is it.
I'm happy not to; family have. These guys want some excitement because they don't know what it means.
(With my balanced hat on, I'm happy to say that all countries are oppressive in some respects, but these people are fools for thinking they're the targets.)
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 05:28 am (UTC)This is generally why I feel that companies need to recognise social media froth isn't really of value. It's similar to a reaction I had to someone's comment on KFgate on the Big O, which is that I think people need to recognise that the Internet =/= RL.
Oh sure, I absolutely think Internet communities have been a mass vehicle for idiocy and radicalisation. I think people underestimate the role fandom played in normalising the SJW playbook and gender ideology. I think people also don't recognise that an earlier iteration of call outs and cancellations took place in fandom and IMO, taught people those tactics were viable.
But you're a big company and shouting people on Twitter, a number of whom are likely bots or paid trolls, ain't gonna hurt you. Grow up and move on.
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 08:54 am (UTC)I agree with this in most cases, though I think cf may be different because their target market = sysadmin sorts, a demographic that is overly online and thus unusually vulnerable to being radicalised online. (Sidenote: I want a better word than "radicalised" when we're talking in terms of movements that are as deeply stupid and meaningless as gendernonsense, I feel like it never even got as far as having foundational beliefs that don't change each morning. But I mean that they've been sensitised to certain words and conditioned into kneejerk reactions by discussions online. Maybe I should use a metaphor more like downloading bad code; if you're at the bleeding edge you're more likely to install a broken module and break your system for a bit. Or a virus that causes the host's own immune system to try to destroy it...). I think it's possible their business would take a hit. I suspect you're not going to get many people who make those tech decisions who also go outside enough.
However. These are not going to be the smartest people in their field; the smarter ones are going to see the bigger implications and potential for abuse. But I suspect the duller ones might be the ones at some of the bigger customers. I think the situation will balance itself out again over time if tech monopolies are prevented, as the smarter ppl drift elsewhere and start inventing things elsewhere.
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 08:59 am (UTC)The question to me is how much damage the lumbering corpses of the zombie dinosaurs can do.
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 11:44 am (UTC)I like the term radicalisation because I think it describes the underlying dynamic. The dynamic can be used to push more benign beliefs, or more extreme ones. (I do think as a whole, the dynamic does describe one with a tendency to extremism over time because that's just what happens generally when you let the shouty people dominate and kick out the chill people. The focus here to me isn't on whether they have coherent beliefs, but how this created a pattern of domination and increasing intolerance based off the expulsion of moderates or perceived moderates. I also think as a side-note that the fact that people tried to weaponise spoilers for Ink Black Heart says a lot. It's a further expansion of acceptable targets from Rowling to TERFS to "anyone who doesn't boycott her", which we've seen before in various guises but needs to be really articulated.)
I don't know about the sysadmin sorts. They're definitely overly online, but they're still going to be marketing to companies. Telling the business that you're not going to deal with cf because kf and genocide and oppression is a hard sell, no matter how a sysadmin feels. Or perhaps I deal with pragmatic business owners more who don't give a flying fuck about your principles.
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 11:44 am (UTC)Your as in general you, not you nonny!
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 12:17 pm (UTC)I think the pragmatism is a problem in some quarters; I defo see "oooh, no, don't deal with themmmm, it'll be bad for your reputation!" from types that have influence over tech decisions and are minimally informed about politics but think they are experts, and then the business jumps on the bandwagon because they fear the shitstorm and they have to trust to the tech person's expertise because they don't have any. (And I know you're joking about the rhetoric re: genocide but maaaan is it a sore point for me that they'll happily make every excuse in the book for doing business with parties that *actually* contribute to genocides, but then suddenly freak out at the potential future harms caused to middleclass American men by some massive Heath Robinson machine that starts with a sixteen year old anywhere on the internet being sarcastic.) I'm all for businesses having principles if they can get some fucking priorities while they're at it.
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 12:22 pm (UTC)m8 u work in aerospace
Re: Random Internet Things
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2022-09-04 12:25 pm (UTC) - ExpandRe: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 06:44 am (UTC)I doubt (hope) this isn't the end, but if it is, I'm going to miss the vtuber thread. Somehow KF, of all places, became the most sane place to discuss them.
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 06:47 am (UTC)NAYRT
How so?
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 03:33 pm (UTC)/vt/ is sadly the best place for live discussion, but it's also a seething den of tribalism and insanity. There's one general that's developed an obsession with viewer numbers and coming up with inane theories to explain why one company's numbers are good and one company's numbers are a sign that no one is watching them except Chinese bots. Gore raids are left up for hours because the moderators refuse to moderate non-Hololive generals. Even discussion between actual fans ends up getting constantly derailed by gender war discourse, because the male fans hate the female fans and vice versa.
In comparison, KF's vtuber thread is relatively sane. You get some weird folks and Null's had to pop in and go 'what the fuck are you guys doing?' a few times, but it's mostly just people sharing streams they enjoyed and gossiping about drama with a clear hands-off policy. Some fanbases are clearly overrepresented (i.e. Pippa), but there's at least a good mix of folks who enjoy all different sorts of vtubers and don't bash one company or another.
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 06:57 am (UTC)Cloudfare are such a bunch of cowards.
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 04:06 pm (UTC)I mean, you'd lose all credibility if you mentioned you read the fruit farms, but come on, people, haven't you seen enough people lying about what you're saying and cautioned people about fed posting enough to see that something doesn't add up? In reality, the place is just a bunch of edgelords, shitposters, and politically homeless snarkers with a handful of extreme leftists and extreme rightwingers. AKA, it's the internet circa 2000, with all the mess and hilarity that brings.
And those who convinced Cloudflare to take this action are 100% not going to stop with the farms. They've already said as much, and if I learned anything from the great Reddit purge, it doesn't matter if you're not doing anything actually wrong.
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 04:36 pm (UTC)I find this is a sign of a backslide in itself. why oh why did people resurrect this idea that you must only read things that satisfy some moral criteria? used to be understood that you could read whatever the fuck you wanted; what mattered was behaviour. :( I wonder what's changed between 2000 and now to make them think we're all in so much more danger from people shitposting? why are they so frightened of reading what a troll says?
> haven't you seen enough people lying about what you're saying and cautioned people about fed posting enough to see that something doesn't add up?
guess they're posers. I appreciate the handful of people I've seen posting facts around.
> AKA, it's the internet circa 2000, with all the mess and hilarity that brings.
yeah from what I've of kf it's much like encyclopaedia dramatica or some shit. there's some nasty stuff on there but it's not the worst place on the internet by a very very long way. I don't wanna chat to people there and I don't wanna see it wiped off the face of the earth either, seems like it's somewhere between celeb gossip forums and 4chan in tone. something like pornhub is objectively worse for the world and the 'ban kf' crowd would be defending that in a heartbeat. or take tiktok down, for that matter, does more damage and at least kf makes me laugh sometimes.
I'll be watching to see where kf go instead, I use cloudflare for some things and I can't trust them now. I'm the most boring milquetoast lefty around but I agree that they're going to escalate, and they'll apply a much harsher standard to women and minorities. so if the trend continues I'll probably just wind up banned for trying to reading articles from pundits across the political map to see their arguments.
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 05:12 pm (UTC)> I find this is a sign of a backslide in itself. why oh why did people resurrect this idea that you must only read things that satisfy some moral criteria? used to be understood that you could read whatever the fuck you wanted; what mattered was behaviour. :( I wonder what's changed between 2000 and now to make them think we're all in so much more danger from people shitposting? why are they so frightened of reading what a troll says?
I think people got there from the approximate cluster of arguments or premises about art shaping social reality or thought that is more or less accepted as bedrock among the left today. Fandom got into such hot soup about the proship/antiship fights because people accept as bedrock the idea that letting people read proships give them problematic ideas about relationships and behaviour and so on. Similarly, that's how we get to the idea that representation is so important to the point that YA works need all skin colours and all corners of the LGBWTFBBQ++42069, because art needs to shape social reality in the right ways.
I dunno, but that's the progression I see in fandom and I still maintain fandom is the vector that spread these ideas and made them common currency.
Ideas like stochastic terrorism (currently their favourite chestnut) and I expect misinformation and the rise of the alt-right probably just cemented people's idea that this is the right thing to do because you don't want to be an alt-right nutter, do you?
> I'll be watching to see where kf go instead, I use cloudflare for some things and I can't trust them now. I'm the most boring milquetoast lefty around but I agree that they're going to escalate, and they'll apply a much harsher standard to women and minorities. so if the trend continues I'll probably just wind up banned for trying to reading articles from pundits across the political map to see their arguments.
Agree.
Re: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 05:27 pm (UTC)I'm just being nitpicky but I wanna note that I do agree with this premise since I like art to reflect reality, while I don't agree with the premise that *every* work should reflect all of it, since that's literally impossible. imo it's usually not fair to criticise an individual work for leaving someone out, but it's fine to criticise trends. I dislike how people bundle even that in with nasty attacks on creators. one of my beefs with all this is that we *don't* get representative lit; we get idealised nonsense; where's the youth psychological horror fiction about the fervent transactivist who then peaks? closest I've read was a harry potter fic where the author didn't realise it was a horror. I think it ends with a 1984-style mob-pressures-harry-into-renouncing-reality. very nearly good shit. I might like to read a novel about a gay guy who grows up in LA, then goes republican and has to deal with the social stigma. I might like to read about the transman who has rejected trans ideology in her own head but thinks it's too late to change how she lives and is just trying to make her way in the world and deal with the regret of having promoted it to others. Perhaps I'd like to read a book about a conservative christian who loses faith in the republican party just in time to get caught in between that and gendernonsense. representation matttttttters! :P But yeah, I like reading things about people who are NOT like me, not just clones of me with a palette swap.
Re: Random Internet Things
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2022-09-04 05:33 pm (UTC) - ExpandRe: Random Internet Things
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2022-09-04 05:40 pm (UTC) - ExpandRe: Random Internet Things
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2022-09-04 05:42 pm (UTC) - ExpandRe: Random Internet Things
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2022-09-04 07:33 pm (UTC) - ExpandRe: Random Internet Things
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2022-09-05 01:02 am (UTC) - ExpandRe: Random Internet Things
Date: 2022-09-04 08:56 am (UTC)It's a bit of a paradox; they've taken the worst course possible for them, pissing off every party. This, in turn, is funny. Which adds value to it. So now maybe it's not the worst course possible, because at least it made me laugh.